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More nonsense from the Ace community - am I Transphobic?

ThinkNotVanilla
ThinkNotVanilla
Looking to pick your fine brains :p

On the UK Asexuality FB group, in a discussion around whether there should be more/no gender options on forms, I joked that I didn't understand why/how people can identify as objects.



When saying humans, regardless of flavour, cannot possibly be objects, someone made a connection between that and transphobia. Why is it so damn easy to accidentally trigger (don't call me out on PTSD references when using that word!) people in this community? We're just humans that aren't all that into sex, it's really not a big deal, so how the heck do we end up attracting so many extreme-leaning views?

Am I transphobic in my comments, or are some people in the community carrying so many chips on their shoulder that they'll draw parallels with just about anything in order to find an excuse to rage?

The trans in our community are cool folk, it's just another flavour of human as we all are. I just don't think it does them justice aligning with objects - that's just illogical.

Geeeez

Comments

  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    Oh the shoulder chips are just so proudly on display. 
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175
    The obsession with trans people is getting totally out of hand. Throwing 99.7 % of the population under the bus for 0.3% is ridiculous. Look at the effect on the ace community. Read TVEN for AVEN, yes there are a lot of trans in the asexual community and I'm fine with that. But no one should overrule anyone else, all within the Asexual community should carry equal weight, identity politics and the oppression olympics are destroying debate.
    Everything is twisted out of all meaning and the trans community is being used to push a narrative, someday the trans community is going to ask for payment, not platitudes.
    I cannot be an ally to a community, but I can be a friend to an individual. I prefer the personal to the impersonal.
    Hopefully the trans mania will end and people will get on as they did in the past, without all the messed up logic.
    Things were a lot simpler for trans in the past, activists have destroyed debate and reason.
    ThinkNotVanilla
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    I think the latest Undoomed episode says all there needs to be said on the subject..


    ThinkNotVanillacandybuddhist
  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14
    I'm finding the sanity here incredibly refreshing.

    Very willing to be called out for obscure/undeveloped views, but none of that reactionary nonsense that is all too common in the community. Often I play devil's advocate to stimulate some kind of progressive conversation around limp, predictable viewpoints, but that's bait to a social activist; which we seem to be en-masse.

    Here's hoping other websites/communities that shall remain unnamed don't continue to pander to this by shutting down conversation and enforcing PC and protectionist values.
    Blinky
  • candybuddhist
    candybuddhist
    Posts: 82
    wait wait. i dont understand the post for some reason. 

    you are called transphobic because you dont want people who identify as attack helicopter be considered to be a gender? 

    it's that what's happening here? i am sorry thinknotvanilla. (it is in english but i dont understand) :( 
  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14
    Well, I don't know really. Some people refer to themselves as an 'it', and make out that they're not human - I, in jest, pointed out that if we're going to begin listing genders on dating site forms then we might need to add an option for people identifying as objects.

    Then this idiot with a hang up decided to make the connection between that and someone who is trans, who clearly isn't someone that objectifies themselves as they're transferring to another gender, so not really sure what the fella's point is there.

    Basically because I don't believe humans can/should be objects, he/she said I'm transphobic. I'm not.

    It's insane, and it happens all the time if you dare to say anything mildly funny on these sites. People just need to get a grip that because they're Ace they're not that special/different, they just another flavour of human among many thousands on various spectrums. The world isn't against them - they're just fighting for an identity, to be treated different for it, and then call out inequality.
  • candybuddhist
    candybuddhist
    Posts: 82
    Well, I don't know really. Some people refer to themselves as an 'it', and make out that they're not human - I, in jest, pointed out that if we're going to begin listing genders on dating site forms then we might need to add an option for people identifying as objects.

    Then this idiot with a hang up decided to make the connection between that and someone who is trans, who clearly isn't someone that objectifies themselves as they're transferring to another gender, so not really sure what the fella's point is there.

    Basically because I don't believe humans can/should be objects, he/she said I'm transphobic. I'm not.

    It's insane, and it happens all the time if you dare to say anything mildly funny on these sites. People just need to get a grip that because they're Ace they're not that special/different, they just another flavour of human among many thousands on various spectrums. The world isn't against them - they're just fighting for an identity, to be treated different for it, and then call out inequality.
    now I understand. 
    they cant even take a single joke because it is true xD and they cant answer properly,  so they just accused you. 

    HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAH!!!

    by the way. you are obviously, not a transphobic :) 
    ThinkNotVanilla
  • User-43756e74
    User-43756e74
    Posts: 77 edited July 13
    *Climbs on soap box*

    OK, I’m gonna be blunt here: 

    (excuse the language)

    Ah, You’re the one who compared my Gender Identity issues with a Fucking Old Spice Commercial.

    With that aside: 

    Let me get one thing straight: If you don’t understand the topic then don’t joke about it because it can come across as pretty mean and hurtful if you do that wich is why they responded to you the way they did.

    You are a volunteer for Avenues so you should be well aware these jokes are unacceptable to them as Avenues  has done plenty Gender topic’s in the past.I’m quite surprised you indicate you aren’t.
    I believe you were well aware of the matter and just posted the joke like you did with me on AVEN especially because you again jokingly refer to us as objects.

    One more thing: It isn’t that extreme to advocate for a no gender option, Also: just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s utter nonsense.It’s actually a very common subject in this modern society where acceptance should be the main key.We want to have equal rights just like anybody else.
    And as a nonbinary person i can guarantee you that we never got a special treatement on AVEN, or in the outside world, in fact: Transphobia IS one of the things we dealt with on AVEN, and the outside world given there were plenty times people vented about it in the Transwhatevers thread in Gender Discussion so I have no idea where you get that impression from nor do i understand the reasoning behind that logic.

    A good friend once told me:
    “THINK before you post shit”
    So I’d suggest you to do the same thing to prevent people jumping on you, otherwise i don’t blaim them for responding to you the way they do as they too have  full right for their opinion(s) just like you have a full right to your opinion(s).

    OK i’m done.

    *Jumps off soapbox*
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175
    @Bryan are you showing a case of male fragility by using a box to stand on to appear taller then what you are.
    Tsk, tsk.
    User-43756e74
  • User-43756e74
    User-43756e74
    Posts: 77
    @Bryan are you showing a case of male fragility by using a box to stand on to appear taller then what you are.
    Tsk, tsk.
    I’m a short guy  :p
  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14 edited July 13
    You’re the one who compared my Gender Identity issues with a Fucking Old Spice Commercial.
    I did nothing of the sort. Is this an abstract comment, or am I missing the point here?

    ...it can come across as pretty mean and hurtful
    If so, then I'd suggest the community increase their tolerance threshold as the world beyond the Ace community is far more direct, rather than expect them to pander to your low level of tolerance. My comments were trivial at best, and didn't even call out Trans at first instance.

    You are a volunteer for Avenues so you should be well aware these jokes are unacceptable to them
    I design the magazine, which takes a couple of weekends out of my schedule every quarter together with 6 other voluntary positions across the human spectrum - I don't get involved in the content. Just because I'm helping to support a subset of the community, it doesn't mean I need to agree with 100% of its direction by default. I'm entitled to my opinion regardless of what position I hold, and quite frankly if I wasn't doing this then you'd be working with a Word Template rather than having a magazine to read every quarter.

    ...and just posted the joke like you did with me on AVEN especially because you again jokingly refer to us as objects.
    Firstly, I refer to no human as an object - that's the basis of the discussion. My point is every human has emotion, regardless of gender, and therefore aligning with being an 'it' is ridiculous. Instead my suggestion to have a 'both' option in a form should meet the requirements of someone identifying as genderless, as well as someone who is gender-fluid. I'm well aware of these terms, but sometimes adding more options on a form opens up a grey area that only opens up only more submissions for inclusion - before long you'll end up with an endless list, just as we have with the different varieties of Ace. Secondly, what was this post you refer to (sorry, my memory is genuinely poor) - I rarely raise challenging subjects on AVEN as it's a pointless endeavour, so it must've been on a topic that really bugged me.

    We want to have equal rights just like anybody else.
    Agreed. I'm passionate about equality, and every human, regardless of their flavour, should be treated equal enforced in law and morally in society. In fact, we need to be working harder on education and awareness IMO, as people are finding Asexuality far too late in life, and feeling pretty vulnerable in their younger years as they don't fit in with a binary world - I was one of them until I hit 25 years of age thanks to an article in The Guardian. But I'm still confused as to why people are drawing parallels between transphobia and my point on the objectification of humans. Some people are physiologically born one of two genders (and in extremely rare conditions without one, but that's in the many tens of zero percentiles) and physiologically concur, albeit on a spectrum. Others have a miss-match between the two and align the two identities to one. Some are fluid, and others are genderless. But no one is a object, and to expect society to adjust to this illogical identity is insane. To call this out as transphobia is a fallacy, and would instead suggest they adjust their views to the vast majority of society. My views represent that majority outside of our protective Ace, PC, idealistic bubble, and until we as a community align on not just this but an all-manner of subject then integration and acceptance will never realistically happen.

    Reflecting on the above, I'm sure you could pick out some words that are probably not 100% the correct terminology from the accepted words list enforced upon us by the community, but hopefully you can read beyond that and understand that what I'm saying really isn't that extreme or radical, and that the underlying context is actually quite well-meaning - for us to be treated as 'norms' through the breaking down of labels, enforced ideals and the victim culture that seems so prevalent with anyone considered to be outside of the mainstream (which I think we self-inflict on ourselves through communities like AVEN). If the term 'norm' triggers you, then replace it with 'common society'.
  • SeaLemon
    SeaLemon
    Posts: 76
    I think it sounds like a case of crossed wires - the post was about including non-binary options (like, just an option that says non-binary) in addition to male & female on the list, and you jump in with the joke about people identifying as objects, which is a completely different thing, and to my knowledge, far less common than people identifying as non-binary.

    Without the context of the thought process that led you to that, I can understand why people interpreted your joke as calling non-binary people objects. Had you explained a little further, you might have gotten a better reception, though to be honest I'm kind of confused as to why you made the joke in the first place - I don't really understand what the two have to do with each other.
  • deltaX
    deltaX
    Posts: 135
    I agree with SeaLemon, I think the post was misinterpreted.  I had to read through it more than once, and I was still not 100% clear what you were going for until I read what you wrote in this thread.  To me I can see how someone who wasn't trying as hard to understand could interpret it as you comparing nonbinary people to people who identify as objects, even though from my understanding they're two totally different things.  Most nonbinary people just want to be who they are without hassle, and don't want to be lumped in with the extreme people who identify as a object or a kin or whatever.

    Also, I'm still a bit confused on how a "both" option would help those who identify as nonbinary.  If you don't feel like a man or a woman, then you wouldn't necessarily fall under the category of "both" either (unless you were bigender).  It would help those who openly want to identify as bisexual/biromantic, but it wouldn't help include people who are agender/gender queer/gender non-comforming etc, which is what the original post seemed to be talking about.
  • deltaX
    deltaX
    Posts: 135
    A bit off topic, but I don't see why all gender surveys don't just include Man, Woman, and Non-binary at a minimum?  Regardless of whether you fully believe/understand non-binary people, there's no denying that people who want to identify themselves as non-binary on surveys exist.  You don't have to list out all of the thousands of gender indentities out there, but including one options using the umbrella term "non-binary" would make a lot of people happier with little to no effort from us cis people.
    SeaLemon
  • User-43756e74
    User-43756e74
    Posts: 77 edited July 13
    @ThinkNotVanilla  The point is that you don’t understand that people will be upset if you all the sudden post such a joke in a serious discussion on Gender issues.It would have been the same thing if you’d make a joke in a discussion on Depression.

    Second, People pointed out you shouldn’t be calling them objects and that outright  caling nonbinary individuals objects is borderline transphobic instead of trying to understand their point of view you continue to proclaim how you stand by your opinion while refusing to differ and how they should stop being oh so offended while you want them to accept whatever you fancy as your opinion.
     

    As for the issue: You made that joke in a Tea and Sympathy Gender style thread where we were al venting on sensitive Gender related matters. I was venting about my Gender issues and depression really bugging me and you popped up and just made the joke wich wasn’t only unacceptable but also completely unrelated to the topic. You didn’t give the impression you were bugged by what i said but rather intended on making the poor joke as a response to my post.

    I find it quite interesting you say you have not done so and imply the issue i had with your joke is unimportant so my take on this current Facebook related issue you’re talking about here is that you knew exactly what you were doing when you posted that joke, people didn’t respond the way you expected and you come here just to complain how they find you transphobic and whatnot wich doesn’t make any sense while you disregard their opinions as “Nonsense”.

    Edit: If you would have elobarated more on your object joke then people would have probaly not been that upset with you.

  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14 edited July 13
    Ahh, I remember you now @SeaLemon - you're the fellow from Swindon, which is where I spent my teenage years, and a village nearby preceding (my pre-Ace awareness years) :) I think I may have affiliated you with the magazine as I recall writing your name as a contributor in at least two issues a year back. The editing team is quite fluid so the numbers often change, hence the affiliation.

    Anyway, back to the topic. Simply put, and reinforcing the suggestion of crossed wires - I think the responses on FB was the standard crap I'd expect, and inside I sort of knew the joke (if you want to call it that, as it was probably more of a quip) would cause some reaction, but it was the mention of transphobia that triggered me (again, no relation to PTSD!) because that is miles away from what I was saying in and believe in, and I was like a dog with a bone because nothing gets me going more than a self-riotous, lefty Ace. The rants after that were just me procrastinating to get shit off my chest, but ultimately that was all a distraction from the main body of my comment that a 'both' option on an 'I'm interested in' form was probably enough.

    That goes onto your point @deltaX - I'll concede and agree with you that inclusion of a 'none' field would be a good idea in the context of most forms for exactly the reason you cite. I was approaching this one in the context of dating, as that sort of seemed what it was asking about, and to be filtering to such a level in that environment did seem a bit farfetched. I saw 'both' as an ample catch-all, especially for our Bi community, but in reality it's neither here not there on wither 'neither' needed to be added too - as with above, it was the ridiculous comment about me being transphobic that flipped me.

    @Bryan, this issue you have with my joke is unimportant to me, because I see that as trivial versus the far wider debate around this subject. I'd rather we debated about the objectification of humans than mess around with the order and choice of my verbiage. I had a look through my AVEN history - which is very weak given all I seem to do on there is talk about the magazine clocking up a mere 137 posts since January 2017 - and I can't find a comment on anything in a Tea & Sympathy thread. It must've had an impact on you if you can remember, so if you have a link I'd love to look back in shame and learn by it. Given my lack of sympathy on this thread though, you can understand a forum that labels itself as such is one I'm going to swerve, so wouldn't have actively sought out a confrontation on such a delicate platform such as AVEN where almost everyone seems to have an identity crisis of some form. I also have zero warning points, so can't be that controversial.

    Anyway, I wish there was more I could agree with you on this topic as I am an 'on the fence' centralist, and totally open to a debate in order to change any ignorant views I hold. That said, I do really appreciate you reading through the thread to first understand my point of view before responding - that's seldom done :)

    Can't help thinking that that's a pretty rubbish end for all on the thread as I can't see any reason why it's worth reigniting it unless someone can come in at my level with a decent opposing view to mine.
    LordGrep
  • deltaX
    deltaX
    Posts: 135
    That goes onto your point @deltaX - I'll concede and agree with you that inclusion of a 'none' field would be a good idea in the context of most forms for exactly the reason you cite. I was approaching this one in the context of dating, as that sort of seemed what it was asking about, and to be filtering to such a level in that environment did seem a bit farfetched. I saw 'both' as an ample catch-all, especially for our Bi community, but in reality it's neither here not there on wither 'neither' needed to be added too - as with above, it was the ridiculous comment about me being transphobic that flipped me.
    But a "neither" option wouldn't include non-binary people either, unless I'm misunderstanding the context somehow.  If your options for who you're interested in include just "Men", "Women", "both", and "neither", then choosing neither would imply you aren't interested in men or women, not that you're interested in people who are neither.  The ideal solution from an exclusivity standpoint would be to have checkboxes for men, women, and non-binary persons, and then let the user check off as many or as few as they want.
  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14
    deltaX said:
    The ideal solution from an exclusivity standpoint would be to have checkboxes for men, women, and non-binary persons, and then let the user check off as many or as few as they want.
    That's a cool idea - replacing booleans for string. Yeah, I'd sign up for that.
  • User-43756e74
    User-43756e74
    Posts: 77

    @ThinkNotVanilla  Glad i could help, You’re definetly not transphobic but i don’t blaim them for responding the way they did as I wasn’t happy with the Old Spice comment either but their response is what you could expect though it could have been more civil. Maybe this is a good lesson to learn not to explicitly say everything you think unless it’s the right moment to do so.I do see your point and I don’t blaim you for feeling the way you do but it just all happened in a bad moment I suppose.

    I personally am a big fan of “unspecified” or just plain nonbinary rather then “neither” that’s just my opinion.

    ThinkNotVanillaBlinky
  • princessem1020
    princessem1020
    Posts: 8
    I will respect them, but I don't think it's wrong to say that I don't believe in being non-binary. And being a different color, age, or species is just plain crazy. The Facebook option of customizing it is no big deal, because it's their choice. It doesn't make it real though.
      I do support and believe in trans men and trans women, but that's it because there is not evidence or proof for anything beyond that. I've watched multiple people online and meet some in person who thought that they might be non-binary only to find out that they just a masculine woman or feminine man and/or they or just a trans man or trans woman, which is why they feel uncomfortable with their assigned gender and experience dysphoria with their assigned sex.
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175

    Well after a barrage of articles about MRI scans showing that there is a difference between male and female brains and that trans people show these differences. (a possible indicator for future diagnosis of dysphoria)

    Last week a neuroscientist has come forward and said that there is no differences between male and female brains, according to her they are all socially constructed !

    She also said that previous studies were taken from a position of bias, namely they were looking for a difference, and hey presto found it. But the problem is in her assertion of bias. She was looking for no difference and hey presto found none.

    Does anyone believe in social construction of gender outside of the peripherals, such as fashion ? And yes you can buck the trend.

    How many studies do you need to show that at one day old babies show a significant difference, girls to faces and boys to things. How has society conditioned them at 1 day old.

  • ThinkNotVanilla
    ThinkNotVanilla
    Posts: 14
    Well, I believe physically we are born of a certain gender with no inbetween or transience, and I do acknowledge that some people feel of a different gender (thus Gender Dysphoria) and therefore undergo physical and chemical gender reassignment. However, I haven't yet evolved enough to understand people claiming no gender or gender fluid.

    Gender stereotypes are all around us - there are too many to list. In some cases I'm sure this has an influence over gender reassignment where people later bounce back to their born physical gender, however I'm sure the vast majority are the result of an unfortunate missmatch between the gender they're physically born as, and the gender they mentally associate with.

    As for scientific studies - the bias often comes as a result of wanting to find something different or new to validate their doctorate. It's not exciting to just research more into something already widely understood and/or accepted. I'm, therefore critical of anything that isn't cross-tested across a spectrum of scientific backgrounds, disciplines and agendas.
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175
    Blaire White has had a psychic reading.
    Evidently the psychic predicted Blaire will have 5 babies, 2 will be twins.
    Has Blaire been fooling with us or are psychics frauds ?
    The psychic has removed permission to show her face and mention of her name, why ?
  • deltaX
    deltaX
    Posts: 135
    Well, I believe physically we are born of a certain gender with no inbetween or transience
    This is true for most, but what about intersex people? http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
    cavalier080854
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    deltaX said:
    Well, I believe physically we are born of a certain gender with no inbetween or transience
    This is true for most, but what about intersex people? http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
    I really think intersex people are a red herring in all this. At the end of the day intersex people have a deformity. It's a bit like saying that people with down syndrome are a different gender. 
    cavalier080854
  • deltaX
    deltaX
    Posts: 135
    LordGrep said:
    deltaX said:
    Well, I believe physically we are born of a certain gender with no inbetween or transience
    This is true for most, but what about intersex people? http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
    I really think intersex people are a red herring in all this. At the end of the day intersex people have a deformity. It's a bit like saying that people with down syndrome are a different gender. 
    I don't agree with your analogy- down syndrome has nothing to do with gender.  I would compare this more to saying everyone has two arms with no in between, failing to take into account that some people have deformities or medical issues that cause them to not have two arms.  I'm not arguing that most people don't have two arms (or that most people aren't born physically male or female), but saying that everyone is that way is factually incorrect.

    You can make the claim that intersex people don't have much to do with the gender debate, but I don't think you can really argue that there isn't a small minority of people who not fully male or fully female biologically.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    Intersex people don't fit in with a defined sex BECAUSE they have an illness.... There are only two sexes, these have developed over time to procreate with each other in order to make children... Intersex people for the huge majority cannot reproduce. I just don't think intersex have anything to do with a gender debate.
    cavalier080854
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175
    The Intersex people are being used by the gender theorists as proof that a third gender exists.
    No they are not, they are a birth defect.
    I love how the theorists are trying actual biology to prove that gender exists, despite saying gender=/=sex.
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