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When does life start?

LordGrep
LordGrep
I have recently taken another look about how I feel about abortions.

I really think that it's not something that should be made illegal, and I feel that banning it just drives something underground, and puts more lives at risk than is necessary. 

I am not going to even entertain the fringe arguments. I think if you allow abortions, then there should not need to be any tests, IE "Only if there is rape" etc.

I think within a reasonable time one should be able to seek a termination. I also think that terminations should be offered to those who have had a pre-natal deformity diagnosis. 

Where the time limits should be is a whole different matter. And the time where a bunch of cells become a human life is the biggest debate, and I have a great deal of sympathy with those who say it's the moment of conception. Having said that I really don't see a couple of cells something that I can agree is a human life. 

Forcing a woman who cannot afford to keep a child, or is mentally incapable of it is to me as cruel as ending one prematurely. I don't actually think there is anything especially special about a human life though. Sure any death is sad, and choosing not to continue a pregnancy is a very sad thing, and no woman has an abortion and feels nothing. It's not something anyone does likely. 

What are your thoughts?
Toffington

Comments

  • Impish
    Impish
    Posts: 49
    In the US, the usual cut off is 24 weeks. There are some less and some more. That's about half of a woman's pregnancy (5.5 months). I think that there is genetic testing that can only be done at the 20 week mark, and if the tests take 1-2 weeks to come back, that leaves a very narrow window for a woman to make a very emotional decision. Pushing 24 to about 27-30 weeks would allow more time to make an informed decision.
  • Gloomy
    Gloomy
    Posts: 262
    As long as it’s done during the first or second trimester I’m fine with it no matter what reason the pregnant person has for having one. Third trimester abortions I think should only be done if the mother’s life is in danger or if the fetus has a severe deformity that would affect its quality of life. By the third trimester the fetus has a developed nervous system and is pretty much a full blown baby. However a microscopic blastocyst or a sea monkey looking embryo at the beginning of a pregnancy definitely shouldn’t have more rights than a pregnant person in my opinion.
  • cavalier080854
    cavalier080854
    Posts: 2,175
    Utah has made the start of a heartbeat the moment of life, 6 weeks. This is too soon, most women are not even aware that they are pregnant at this moment.
    The current time of 24 weeks is set by the medical experts as time when modern techniques can ensure the baby can complete it's term to unassisted viability.
    With the plethora of contraception available now, multiple layers can ensure the abortion question disappears. The morning after pill, taken twice, further reduces this in case of muddled actions.
    24 weeks is enough to come to a decision. After that then only the cases of either mother or foetus living and incest really enter the fray, most agree that these 2 are reasonable grounds. 
    Unlike most of the people talking today about abortion, I can remember when they were illegal (prior to 1967). My parents would talk about some girl getting one.
    If we go back to the bad old days of backstreet abortions, then death, permanent sterility, internal bleeding, peritonitis and a life of pain will reappear. Do we want that ?
    Despite the risks that I have mentioned, women still risked their lives, how many problems do they have to overcome this ?
    No one undertakes an abortion lightly, this trivialises the procedure, which benefits the pro-choice camp. But I do not want the women to be guilt tripped by the pro-life camp.
    Each woman must be allowed to come to this difficult decision by themselves, but the potential father must have a say,  but ultimately the final say is the womans.
    I was appalled by the American Safe Haven system, but I appreciated why. If you believe in equality then if a woman can opt out of being a mother after the event then, if it can be proved that the man has been tricked, then he should have the option of forgoing being a father. But can never, ever have contact after.
    This option will give an incentive either way for getting an abortion.
    Some of the radical pro-choice activists want termination up to 5 years after birth ! I kid you not, look it up.
    Can someone really think they can have a 5 year old killed ? In everthing there are extremists, including pro-life, some of the bombings resulted in the death of the mother and baby. So much for life.
    In the 60s the girls didn't have the pill till 18, but demanded a condom, no rubber, no play. At school the bike sheds were the place for the 14/15 yo to shag. No one got pregnant in the 5 years I was there. The electrical sub station next to the shed was the dumping ground for used condoms. Must weeks couples were shagging, usually on Monday and Tuesday, before the money to buy them was gone. I don't know what has happened to the kids today, from the sexual liberation of the 60s to the ignorance and prudery of today. Where did it go off the rails. Is it any wonder I do not understand todays young adults. The youth of today are getting less sex than the uptight Victorians, 28% of people under 25 are still virgins. So much for rape culture.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    On the subject of male choice, someone came up with an interesting idea that I adapted to being this:

    Up until the abortion cut off, a man can opt to have no financial inclusion. This lack of inclusion though removes his right to be a part of the childs life.

    This way the woman can chose if they want to carry to full term knowing what input the father will have, and men are not forced into financial responsibility. 

    I think it's wrong for a man to force abortion, but equally wrong to just expect that a man pays. 

    I am in agreement with those above though. I actually went through the scary shit of having a marker show up in pregnancy. Because of the probability and the marker we opted not to go for amniocentesis as it carried a greater risk of harm than the risk of the condition, also the condition it's self would have meant that the child would not have lived for more than a year. 

    I have also been in the position when I was very young of having a condom break, and having to go to a doctors with my GF at the time. She was 15, and I was 16. She got the morning after pill something that was quite new at the time. I know how scary all that was in a society that was relatively accepting. I know that if mine, or her parents found out there would have been hell.  

    What most people forget is that people make mistakes, and kids make more of them. If things are pushed underground it will open up a traumatic experience into a dangerous one, and I am in no doubt lead to young people doing all kinds of dangerous shit. 

    I heard of cases where young girls tried to abort using coat hangers, and others than got their BFs to punch them in the stomachs.. It's just not right to punish kids for their parents lack of education, or hyper moralistic views. 

    The simple fact is that young people have sex. Young people are in many cases the most fertile, and they are least able to deal with an unplanned pregnancy. 
    Gloomy
  • Impish
    Impish
    Posts: 49
    If the US would incorporate comprehensive sex education in their school systems, unplanned pregnancy statistics would drop. 

    Accidents happen. Not everyone chooses to GET pregnant. All women choose whether or not to STAY pregnant. 

    I agree with male financial responsibility. There should be an opt out, because I read so much shit on FB about women stopping the pill and poking holes in condoms because they want a kid and their husband/partner/bf/whatever doesn't. And as of now, there's no real recourse for the guy, which is sad, because (especially if he wore a condom), he did his due diligence. He can't help if a girl lies to him (even though he should never take her at face value, unless they're in a long term relationship).
    Gloomy
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742 edited July 2
    I am more against abortions, than I am for choice to do them. Mostly due to the risks involved. Women get fucked up by them. Besides, people will pay for a babies in adoption cases. (Ever watch Juno?) The people portrayed in this movie do exist. It can be a win win, to help the mother not fall into post abortion depression, and save her from sterility and complicated births in the future. While getting paid to have it, and medical costs covered. To not kill the fetus, and possibly give it to the husband if desired/adoption.

    It may be in the mother's womb, but it is an individual life with its own DNA. Life starts at conception.

    The only time I find it acceptable, is rape and mutation/disease.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    I just know how horrid it must be to give birth, then give it away. It's all s bit much.
  • Gloomy
    Gloomy
    Posts: 262
    Technically life begins before conception, since gametes are alive.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    Well if you want to go that far, the eggs were made in the womb of her mother. That's right the cells that made you started off inside your grandmother. 
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742 edited July 2
    LordGrep said:
    I just know how horrid it must be to give birth, then give it away. It's all s bit much.
    Psychologically and physically it is better. As the womans hormones will balance out. Then you can remain in contact with the parents who adopt your child and watch it grow and raised by parents who actually wanted it. Sure it is sad, but it is better than killing them.

    One of my best friends, I met way before I came to AVEN. He is alive because of this. He was put up for adoption the day he was born, and adopted by a white family (He is dark mixed). Turned into an amazing person with like 5 other adopted brothers and sisters. 

    The downside? His mother didn't remain in contact. As you can keep it anonymous. He doesn't know what race he is, nor his birth parent's names. 
  • Impish
    Impish
    Posts: 49
    The people willing to adopt vs the people who want to spawn their own kid are nil. Pregnancy takes more of a toll on a woman's body than an abortion does, which is bleeding and cramping for a week like an over-glorified period. Pregnancy is 9 months of your organs shifting, your hormones changing, your tits leaking and then sagging, your pelvis bones separating, your twat never being the same again, possible tears...and that's just vaginal birth. Abortion is just as safe as any other medical procedure. If you want a parasite growing in you, that's cool, yo. But I don't, and it's my choice to be rid of it.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    You put it so well @Impish (though I have to say that the mother of my childs genitals looked like she had been in a car accident after my son beat the shit out of them on the way out).
    ImpishGloomy
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742
    Impish said:
    The people willing to adopt vs the people who want to spawn their own kid are nil. Pregnancy takes more of a toll on a woman's body than an abortion does, which is bleeding and cramping for a week like an over-glorified period. Pregnancy is 9 months of your organs shifting, your hormones changing, your tits leaking and then sagging, your pelvis bones separating, your twat never being the same again, possible tears...and that's just vaginal birth. Abortion is just as safe as any other medical procedure. If you want a parasite growing in you, that's cool, yo. But I don't, and it's my choice to be rid of it.
    Abortion isn't so great on a woman. I don't take you for being ignorant, as the Left doesn't want people to know. But abortion has a high rate of sterilizing a woman. It also has a high rate of making any other births very complicated/cause trouble mate. The hormones are a secondary thought (which could lead to insanity). The act of shoving a tool up some woman's vagina, is in fact, damaging. Although it depends on level of pregnancy, and skill of the abortioner. http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/abortion-emotional-effects/
  • Impish
    Impish
    Posts: 49
    Yeah I'm not talking about the emotional shit. You can see a counselor for that. The physical side effects of abortion are minimal. 

    You talk about 'skill' being necessary. If a woman's right to choose abortion is outlawed, that goes out the window. We're back to the 50's with back alleys and coat hangers and all of the really vile stuff that women went through when they were left with no options. You can believe that abortion isn't for you, and that's okay. But you can't tell me that I don't get to decide what to do with my own body. If it can't live outside of my body on its own as far as a heart beating, breathing, brain function, and the ability to feed off of something that isn't a nutrient from my body, then it's nothing more than a parasite. You wouldn't force me to keep a tapeworm in my body, and you wouldn't like being forced to keep one, either.
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742
    Impish said:
    Yeah I'm not talking about the emotional shit. You can see a counselor for that. The physical side effects of abortion are minimal. 

    You talk about 'skill' being necessary. If a woman's right to choose abortion is outlawed, that goes out the window. We're back to the 50's with back alleys and coat hangers and all of the really vile stuff that women went through when they were left with no options. You can believe that abortion isn't for you, and that's okay. But you can't tell me that I don't get to decide what to do with my own body. If it can't live outside of my body on its own as far as a heart beating, breathing, brain function, and the ability to feed off of something that isn't a nutrient from my body, then it's nothing more than a parasite. You wouldn't force me to keep a tapeworm in my body, and you wouldn't like being forced to keep one, either.
    Or you can just not abort the baby with fucking coat hangers. How is that a final solution, when you got people willing to pay for the child? I don't think calling your unborn child a parasite is ethical. Don't make shitty mistakes, and you won't have shitty situations. The only exception to this rule, is rape. 
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    This is yet another one of those topics where once the actual reason for the policy is taken away suddenly there are a whole lot of other reasons that are even less valid submitted.

    The policy is "No abortions" because "life begins at conception". Once you say "I don't care" the argument is just a "yes it is", "no it isn't" affair. OR what seems to happen is that we then get all these side issues like "We should take away your right to abortion because it's good for you". Which is like banning alcohol because it's bad for you. 

    It's like the global warming thing. These all feel like policies that looked for excuses and reasons to justify them. 

    Abortion is not nice. 

    Abortion is not something anyone just goes into without a care in the world.

    Abortions will just keep happening if they are banned.

    If religion is a part of it, then go study more, cos with companion works, one can see there is more evidence in the bible about abortions, than there is about homosexuality.

    I don't believe there is anything special at all about a human life. It is sad when all life is ended, or not started, and just because embryos grow into people, it does not give an embryo a greater right than a fully grown human. 
    Gloomy
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742
    LordGrep said:
    This is yet another one of those topics where once the actual reason for the policy is taken away suddenly there are a whole lot of other reasons that are even less valid submitted.

    The policy is "No abortions" because "life begins at conception". Once you say "I don't care" the argument is just a "yes it is", "no it isn't" affair. OR what seems to happen is that we then get all these side issues like "We should take away your right to abortion because it's good for you". Which is like banning alcohol because it's bad for you. 

    It's like the global warming thing. These all feel like policies that looked for excuses and reasons to justify them. 

    Abortion is not nice. 

    Abortion is not something anyone just goes into without a care in the world.

    Abortions will just keep happening if they are banned.

    If religion is a part of it, then go study more, cos with companion works, one can see there is more evidence in the bible about abortions, than there is about homosexuality.

    I don't believe there is anything special at all about a human life. It is sad when all life is ended, or not started, and just because embryos grow into people, it does not give an embryo a greater right than a fully grown human. 
    Can't forget the cultural significance of accepting it, means is perfectly ok to kill something just because you do not want it. What else would we consider killing because of this apathy?
  • Gloomy
    Gloomy
    Posts: 262
    I honestly don’t care about embryos or zygotes or whatever you wanna call them. I might even use stem cells from a few of them to get rid of wrinkles when I’m like 50....lol but yeah embryos have way less brain functioning than the bugs I kill and the tasty animals I eat.
  • LordGrep
    LordGrep
    Posts: 2,686
    LordGrep said:
    This is yet another one of those topics where once the actual reason for the policy is taken away suddenly there are a whole lot of other reasons that are even less valid submitted.

    The policy is "No abortions" because "life begins at conception". Once you say "I don't care" the argument is just a "yes it is", "no it isn't" affair. OR what seems to happen is that we then get all these side issues like "We should take away your right to abortion because it's good for you". Which is like banning alcohol because it's bad for you. 

    It's like the global warming thing. These all feel like policies that looked for excuses and reasons to justify them. 

    Abortion is not nice. 

    Abortion is not something anyone just goes into without a care in the world.

    Abortions will just keep happening if they are banned.

    If religion is a part of it, then go study more, cos with companion works, one can see there is more evidence in the bible about abortions, than there is about homosexuality.

    I don't believe there is anything special at all about a human life. It is sad when all life is ended, or not started, and just because embryos grow into people, it does not give an embryo a greater right than a fully grown human. 
    Can't forget the cultural significance of accepting it, means is perfectly ok to kill something just because you do not want it. What else would we consider killing because of this apathy?
    Are you vegan then? You know what happens to male chicks don't you? 









    This is how we treat life, and although I wish this is not how we had to treat life, and it definitely isn't how I would wish life was treated, these chicks are in a sense "born". They are undoubtedly alive. 

    I don't think anyone thinks of an abortion like "meh, I just don't want it" like an old pair of shoes. You have to be pretty shallow to treat a potential child in such a manner, and I would like to think that a woman has was more of a vested interest in keeping a child than aborting it. 



    cavalier080854
  • Toffington
    Toffington
    Posts: 742
    LordGrep said:
    LordGrep said:
    This is yet another one of those topics where once the actual reason for the policy is taken away suddenly there are a whole lot of other reasons that are even less valid submitted.

    The policy is "No abortions" because "life begins at conception". Once you say "I don't care" the argument is just a "yes it is", "no it isn't" affair. OR what seems to happen is that we then get all these side issues like "We should take away your right to abortion because it's good for you". Which is like banning alcohol because it's bad for you. 

    It's like the global warming thing. These all feel like policies that looked for excuses and reasons to justify them. 

    Abortion is not nice. 

    Abortion is not something anyone just goes into without a care in the world.

    Abortions will just keep happening if they are banned.

    If religion is a part of it, then go study more, cos with companion works, one can see there is more evidence in the bible about abortions, than there is about homosexuality.

    I don't believe there is anything special at all about a human life. It is sad when all life is ended, or not started, and just because embryos grow into people, it does not give an embryo a greater right than a fully grown human. 
    Can't forget the cultural significance of accepting it, means is perfectly ok to kill something just because you do not want it. What else would we consider killing because of this apathy?
    Are you vegan then? You know what happens to male chicks don't you? 









    This is how we treat life, and although I wish this is not how we had to treat life, and it definitely isn't how I would wish life was treated, these chicks are in a sense "born". They are undoubtedly alive. 

    I don't think anyone thinks of an abortion like "meh, I just don't want it" like an old pair of shoes. You have to be pretty shallow to treat a potential child in such a manner, and I would like to think that a woman has was more of a vested interest in keeping a child than aborting it. 



    I have definitely struggled with the concept of vegetarianism. I don't like it, but at the same time it is essential to survival.  
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